[00:00:52] <alus> Nolar: that digitalsociety post disappoints me. there's no real analysis or comparison to TCP - it's a blind rush to plug his previous work, smearing uTP along the way
[00:01:27] <K`Tetch> that's Georgia for you :-)
[00:04:40] <Nolar> alus ya, and i'm not sure what he's expecting for ping times
[00:05:31] <Nolar> < 100 sounds tricky, but i'm not sure what's beeing seen with utp
[00:06:26] <alus> we specifically set a target of 100ms over the base ping time
[00:06:36] <Nolar> "Even with upstream only traffic, ping times still increased up to 70 milliseconds over the base line ping measurement of 12 milliseconds."
[00:06:46] <alus> 10ms, which is what he probably would like, does not allow for even one packet of data in the buffer on home internet connections
[00:06:53] <Nolar> so, that's still under 20ms?
[00:06:54] <alus> but, that's an option if he wants to screw with it
[00:07:21] <alus> also, run that test with TCP and see what happens :P
[00:07:36] <Nolar> tcp auto speed?
[00:07:43] <kjetilho> alus: huh?  how slow is your line?
[00:07:44] <alus> ?
[00:08:27] <kjetilho> "10ms, which is what he probably would like, does not allow for even one packet of data in the buffer on home internet connections"
[00:08:48] <alus> kjetilho: standard DSL lines upload at about 384kbps. a 1500 byte packet therefore takes ~31ms to be pushed out
[00:09:08] <kjetilho> 1500 bytes * 100 is just 1.2 Mbps
[00:09:09] <kjetilho> oh, wow.
[00:09:28] <kjetilho> 384 kbps
[00:09:36] <kjetilho> I thought we were in the 21st century
[00:09:45] <alus> upload, not download
[00:09:54] <kjetilho> yeah.  that's 3G speed
[00:10:08] <alus> 3G uploads at 1.2Mbps? no way.
[00:10:19] <kjetilho> 384 kbps
[00:10:34] <alus> oh, yeah.
[00:10:46] <Nolar> i'd be happy if my 3g got to 384 on the *downlaod* sometimes ;)
[00:10:48] <kjetilho> 384 kbps DSL is ADSL1
[00:11:36] * kjetilho should read the link...
[00:15:36] <alus> no.
[00:15:41] <alus> no one should read it ;)
[00:15:55] <The_8472> <alus> kjetilho: standard DSL lines upload at about 384kbps. <- lol, wut? in australia maybe
[00:16:16] <The_8472> in germany the lowest you can possibly get is 1Mbit. 2, 6, 16, 24 or 50 are more common
[00:16:26] <The_8472> unless you're talking upstream of course
[00:16:31] <alus> all over the USA
[00:16:54] <alus> if you get a standard AT&T or SBC DSL line
[00:17:23] <Nolar> 384 up in the US is probably the most common
[00:17:24] <alus> The_8472: yes, upstream
[00:17:33] <andar2> north america kind of sucks for internet access
[00:17:38] <Nolar> yup :)
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[00:17:57] <The_8472> ah, ok. upstream sounds reasonable then
[00:18:07] <andar2> i only get 1mbit upstream here :(
[00:20:12] <K`Tetch> i have the best package, from the only isp that serves me, and it's 512kbit upload
[00:20:15] <K`Tetch> on a good day
[00:20:43] <The_8472> <K`Tetch> i have the best package, from the only isp that serves me <- there's your problem
[00:20:58] <K`Tetch> yeah, well, no cable out here
[00:21:07] <DeHackEd> where are you?
[00:21:11] <K`Tetch> at+t's the only isp that's willing to deal
[00:21:16] <K`Tetch> rural georgia
[00:21:24] <K`Tetch> midway between atlanta, macon and athens
[00:21:41] <The_8472> i could get 1 cable provider, several 3G flatrates and several DSL proviers here
[00:22:03] <K`Tetch> cable is basic TV only, no internet, no digital
[00:22:25] <The_8472> and i'm living in a rather small town... used to be a village half a century ago
[00:22:45] <K`Tetch> the town i'm on the outskirts of, has a population of 250
[00:23:01] <The_8472> ohh, ok. you beat me there ^^
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[00:23:33] <The_8472> we can pick between digital cable, satellite and over the air here ^^
[00:23:38] <The_8472> and iptv
[00:23:45] <K`Tetch> the MAIN town, where everything is, is 16km away, and has a population of 3,000
[00:23:53] <kjetilho> the author seems to be a QoS advocate, but without giving any thought to what will stop users from cheating
[00:23:57] <K`Tetch> no OTA TV - too many mountains
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[00:26:58] <The_8472> well, tbh... just setting a few diffserv bits and let the routers handle things would be a lot easier
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[01:29:34] <TheSHAD0W> I live outside of any town, maybe 100 people within 5 miles.
[01:30:05] <TheSHAD0W> Surprisingly, I have DSL, but no cable, no wifi, almost no cell phone, no TV, no water or gas...
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[02:01:43] <Miller`> ...no water?
[02:02:04] <TheSHAD0W> No water.
[02:02:09] <TheSHAD0W> I have to have it trucked in.
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[02:23:34] <K`Tetch> I'm on city water
[02:23:47] <K`Tetch> and i have 3g (verizon CDMA)
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[03:29:29] <TheSHAD0W> http://torrentfreak.com/mpaa-propaganda-hits-60-minutes-091102/
[03:38:26] <Nolar> http://www.businessinsider.com/the-movie-industry-needs-to-stop-whining-about-piracy-and-embrace-digital-2009-11
[03:48:10] <TheSHAD0W> http://www.cbs.com/primetime/60_minutes/video/?pid=uYK9jpvcD76dj8xY0o_L_t4DnnaNaaxv - The movie piracy segment is the last third of the episode.
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[04:22:58] <K`Tetch> yeah, there's a link to just the piracy section
[04:23:04] <K`Tetch> and a transcript if you'd rather
[04:23:19] <K`Tetch> http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/30/60minutes/main5464994.shtml <-- transcript
[04:23:28] <K`Tetch> I've beenworking on identifying and correcting the facts
[04:23:40] <K`Tetch> using a maximum of 60minutes of fact checking
[04:26:59] <TheSHAD0W> http://torrentfreak.com/bittorrent-on-your-tv-for-less-than-9000-090701/
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[04:27:38] <TheSHAD0W> Hum.
[04:27:47] <TheSHAD0W> The website shows it's $65, not $90.
[04:28:09] <K`Tetch> they've dropped the price in the last 5 months
[04:29:04] <TheSHAD0W> What OS does it run, and is it hackable?
[04:29:26] <K`Tetch> no ideqa
[04:29:39] <K`Tetch> i had nothing to do with the piece
[04:29:55] <TheSHAD0W> Oh.
[04:29:59] <K`Tetch> I have a set top box, (actually its been sitting here since May, I need to finish testing/reviewing it!)
[04:30:05] <TheSHAD0W> My friggin' email client is screwing up again.
[04:30:09] <TheSHAD0W> LOL
[04:32:00] <TheSHAD0W> Gah.
[04:32:11] <TheSHAD0W> Shouldn't have upgraded to Seamonkey 2 right away.  :-P
[04:33:03] <DeHackEd> it's based on firefox3, which is enough for me to avoid it like the plague
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[04:55:28] <TheSHAD0W> Well, the email client is screwing up badly.
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[08:59:56] <alus> DeHackEd: what browser do you use?
[09:01:41] <alus> my problem with all these BT settop boxes is that they run some random BitTorrent client of questionable quality
[09:01:54] <alus> I want to run the client of my choice.
[09:13:21] <The_8472> then do s/settopbox/mediacenter/
[09:13:25] <The_8472> problem solved
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[11:37:35] <Leoneof`> hello
[11:38:45] <Leoneof`> bittorrent and utorrent is not downloading anymore, like ubuntu torrent, it will download with proxy?
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[12:35:47] <Leoneof`> yes?
[12:36:50] <DWKnight> who is your internet provider?
[12:37:31] <Leoneof`> i don't know, it is in iraq
[12:40:05] <Leoneof`> O.o
[12:45:07] <Leoneof`> ok -_-
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[13:14:19] <DeHackEd> alus: seamonkey. why?
[13:14:42] <alus> The_8472: too expensive. a tiny little < $90 box is plenty for running BitTorrent on
[13:15:34] <alus> DeHackEd: just curious, since you were dissing Firefox
[13:16:08] <alus> DeHackEd: I agree that Firefox is the new Mozilla. just wondering what you preferred
[13:16:29] <DeHackEd> firefox2 or seamonkey. ff3 can see figure one
[13:18:19] <alus> yeah. it's about time someone wrote a new spin-off which will take over popularity but then ultimately become the main focus of the Netscape I mean Mozilla Foundation so they can ruin it
[13:18:35] <kjetilho> what's wrong with Chromium?
[13:18:51] * kjetilho uses Opera, though.  he's impure!
[13:18:54] <alus> kjetilho: slow. memory hog. can't open pdfs
[13:18:59] <DeHackEd> you mean google?
[13:19:10] <kjetilho> I always hated PDF in my browser
[13:19:16] <alus> yeah it sucks.
[13:19:24] <kjetilho> I really prefer to launch Okular anyway
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[13:41:35] <DeHackEd> I don't want PDF readers invading my private address space.
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[14:52:36] <K`Tetch> alus - i can open ppdfs in my browser just fine with opera
[14:52:39] <K`Tetch> been able to for years
[14:53:07] <K`Tetch> oh, chromium
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[15:25:35] <TheSHAD0W> http://www.crunchgear.com/2009/11/01/nsa-to-store-yottabytes-of-surveillance-data-in-utah-megarepository/
[15:29:19] <alus> so I guess a normal repository holds an exabyte
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[20:17:35] <K`Tetch> ACTA needs to eb public - http://bit.ly/4CfT1e
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[20:21:40] <The_8472> "see the full list here"
[20:21:44] <The_8472> link... broken
[20:28:30] <K`Tetch> not broke, just missing
[20:29:11] <K`Tetch> i put it in later, under found out
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[20:30:25] <K`Tetch> updated though
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[22:23:36] <mhall> Hello all. I am trying to figure out the system requirements to run a bittorrent tracker optimally.
[22:24:01] <mhall> I work for a network device vendor and one of our customers has reported a defect in our devices which is triggered by BitTorrent usage.
[22:24:26] <mhall> So we are trying to create a really big torrent site like test environment here locally to reproduce the issue.
[22:24:54] <mhall> I have googled considerably to no avail.
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[22:28:02] <cyb2063> mhall: http://erdgeist.org/arts/software/opentracker/
[22:28:55] <Nolar> what part are you having trouble with?
[22:29:20] <cyb2063> but running a tracker is one thing, having problems coping with to many connections another.
[22:30:07] <mhall> right
[22:30:18] <mhall> but i have to get the tracker going before i can reproduce the defect
[22:30:25] <mhall> since the downloads have to be initiated somehow
[22:30:26] <mhall> :)
[22:31:58] <mhall> Nolar: from what we understand based on the customer problem description, the issue seems to have something to do with the logic of learning all the new mac and ip values during connection initiation, between a topology of several of our switch routers, while the ip (l3) forwarding is enabled, and certain other things are running on the switch routers
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[22:32:19] <mhall> one of the embedded CPUs in the switch router hangs and causes a partial reboot and loss of availability
[22:33:29] <mhall> so we have to make an environment which acts like a torrent site, only our files will be a lot more boring than the usual files one might download
[22:33:32] <mhall> :)
[22:34:13] <mpl> not all linux distributions are boring.
[22:36:24] <mhall> mpl: i take it you are referring to the distro, whose name is an obvious pun upon debian? ;)
[22:38:15] <Nolar> ya, bittorrent tracking means many short-lived connections
[22:38:33] <mpl> hmm, no I'm not following you, sorry.
[22:38:40] <Nolar> although i wouldnt expect it to be any different from any other large http-based service
[22:39:24] <Nolar> anything with many peers making few connections
[22:39:48] <Nolar> what kind of customer load we talking about ?
[22:40:56] <The_8472> mhall, mac addresses? that's unusual. most big trackers run over the internet, i.e. they should only see the mac address of the gateway. but they'll be hammered by tons of IPs.
[22:41:44] <The_8472> a few anecdotes i've heard was that userspace load was at ~1% but the kernel was spinning on doing interrupt handling from dealing with all the packets, tcp sockets etc.
[22:42:03] <The_8472> so connection setup/teardown consumed vastly more resources than the actual data handling
[22:42:40] <Nolar> you're talking piratebay loads there though ;)
[22:42:45] <The_8472> and the tracker traffic can come from potentially millions of different IPs (in the case of big trackers like the pirate bay)
[22:42:48] <The_8472> yes
[22:43:23] <The_8472> they had to buy some intel cards with irq coalescing and what not
[22:47:59] <The_8472> mhall, are you doing anything like conntrack or similar?
[22:48:34] <Nolar> a good hardware balancer would have helped
[22:49:00] <Nolar> sometimes you just have to go there :)
[22:49:55] <The_8472> a hardware balancer requires more hardware ^^
[22:50:41] <Nolar> one more box vs N+ more software ones
[22:51:16] <Nolar> then again, if a simple nic swap solved their problem, that works too
[22:52:25] <The_8472> well... if the box can handle the throughput, memory isn't full and userspace load is 1-5% ... why get a new box? it's a software/driver/nic problem if your kernel is thrashing
[22:52:33] <Nolar> but a good hw frontend can shed load from backends to handle real requests
[22:53:43] <The_8472> hrrrm
[22:53:55] <The_8472> i somehow don't see what good a load balancer would do in that situation
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[22:55:06] <Nolar> load balancer handles all tcp connection handling, and simply reverse proxies actualy requests to backends who have just a small pool of persistent connections to the load balanacer
[22:55:36] * Nolar grammer not so good atm
[22:55:48] <The_8472> hrrrm. i see
[22:55:53] <The_8472> that only works for some protocols though
[22:56:00] <Nolar> tcp
[22:56:01] <Nolar> :)
[22:56:20] <Nolar> it's the approach i use here all the time
[22:56:27] <The_8472> well... you said persistent connections. mapping many connections to one is protocol-specific
[22:56:29] <Nolar> of course, i run software load balancers ;)
[22:56:56] <Nolar> but the idea is the same, where you hide actual app servers from dealing with connectin handling
[22:57:14] <Nolar> tracker = http
[22:57:15] <The_8472> then you just shift it to another machine
[22:57:22] <Nolar> yup
[22:57:42] <Nolar> my point was, rather than adding intel nics to a bunch of backend servers
[22:58:08] <The_8472> the point is not throwing more resources at the problem but making the machine that should theoretically be capable of handling the traffic actually do the work
[22:58:09] <Nolar> you can get the same hardware capabilities with a single frontend
[23:00:08] <kjetilho> handling one NIC is basically restricted to one core on Linux
[23:00:21] <kjetilho> so doing bonding is a simple way to get better CPU-utilisation
[23:00:50] <kjetilho> even if you don't actually need more than 1 gigabit
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[23:00:57] <The_8472> well, there also are basic things like disabling conntrack and/or using NOTRACK filters for those ports
[23:01:18] <kjetilho> conntrack is really useless for a tracker, yes
[23:01:30] <The_8472> i helped someone fixing his tracker server... it was dieing because it a) ran out of sockets b) got massive conntrack overflows
[23:02:32] <The_8472> those problems set in long before you get to deal with interrupts firing too often
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[23:46:09] <mhall> The_8472: we are doing the IP forwarding in a custom ASIC
[23:46:41] <mhall> The_8472: we have been told the issues happens when the customer allows >= 200 peer IPs to be connected to by their BT client
[23:47:08] <The_8472> that seems rather low
[23:47:26] <The_8472> even a regular windows box can handle 200 connections
[23:47:52] <DreadWingKnight> belkin G routers die at 64
[23:48:11] <The_8472> well, yeah. but they're cheap crap ^^
[23:48:11] <DreadWingKnight> for the most part
[23:48:39] <mhall> the more classic solution would be, instead of using a load balancer, use a more advanced NIC like an 82598 with hardware flow classification and direction... this can preprocess, order, offload, and balance the flows across multiple CPU cores
[23:49:05] <The_8472> that's why i mentioned the intels
[23:49:57] <mhall> yeah, that's what we use when we need similar abilities in the various equipment we sell which is x86 based
[23:50:04] <The_8472> anyway. are you sure it's just 200 static connections? connection churn or DHT traffic are quite a different scenario
[23:50:16] <mhall> for the hard core stuff that has to handle ~ 600 million packets per second, we use ASICs of course
[23:50:43] <The_8472> is it flow based or strictly packet based?
[23:51:08] <The_8472> i.e. does it keep state?
[23:53:40] <mhall> The_8472: 200 peer ips would potentially represent > 200 connections if there is NxN connections between peers
[23:53:58] <mhall> The_8472: the MACs are kept statefully because it is a switch router
[23:54:09] <mhall> The_8472: by default every port blade supports 65k MAC entries
[23:54:30] <The_8472> they're within the same lan?
[23:54:45] <mhall> The_8472: the routing is done statelessly by creating TCAM entries which match the packets for each route in a single clock cycle, up to the max limit of route entries
[23:55:10] <mhall> The_8472: the customer reported the issues only occurs when they perform routing of the traffic (subnet to subnet)
[23:56:33] <mhall> The_8472: right now my main theory is that it has something to do with the code which creates the MAC entries and configures the routes
[23:57:01] <mhall> The_8472: because once those are done the forwarding is done in hardware, and the hardware is known to properly forward the traffic at greater than 10gbit speed
[23:57:27] <mhall> The_8472: with many hundred million packets per second
[23:57:37] <The_8472> no need to highlight me every time
[23:57:43] <The_8472> there's no one else talking here atm
[23:58:01] <mhall> sorry, didn't mean to annoy... in the Linux channels I usually use this was expected behavior
[23:58:14] <The_8472> they're busier
[23:59:48] <The_8472> anyway. if you have 200 nodes spread over 2 subnets... then yes, you'd end up with more than 200 connections





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